Talk:Saint Joan of Arc (Jeanne la Pucelle)
Notes and Edits
Edited Out
-- actually Joan didn't just hear voices of Saints, she interacted with them, telling her interrogators of kissing the feet of Saints Catherine and Margaret. Pernoud, however, neither asserts nor denies Joan's voices, which is a copout.
-- So let's re-write this historian's own epithet for Joan, only with faith and love in Christ, as Joan's canonization is to be celebrated, not used as a weapon against Joan's own faith.
They believed in Joan and made her their heroine, affirmed by Mother Church with her official and glorious canonization on May 9, 1921 and followed by State declaring July 10, her Feast Day, a national holiday.
-- No reading of the extensive record shows in her any hint of guile or manipulation by the Maid. Like the Apostle Nathanael, as attested repeatedly by her French contemporaries, "There is no duplicity in [her]."[1]
-- The rage of the ecclesiastical Court and its English backers that condemned her is in inverse proportion to the glory of Joan's visions and the reality Joan and her people understood them to be.
The source of the historians' problem is incredulity in Joan's divine mission. Absent authentic Voices something else is needed to explain it all, so it must be this or that or something else; anything but God. So let's look at what she actually did, which might reveal whether she was just crazy, a witch, a saint, or... just whatever.
To save France, she needed to crown the Dauphin legitimate King of France; to crown the King, she needed to relieve the city of Orléans from the English siege; to take the city of Orléans, she needed to lead the French army; to lead the army, she needed the support of the Dauphin and his court; to convince the court, she had to demonstrate Catholic orthodoxy to the Dauphin's investigators of her; to get the support of the Dauphin she needed to she needed to convince him of her divine mission; to convince him of her divine mission she had to do meet with him; to meet with him, she had to generate enthusiasm and curiosity as to who she might be; to convince people she was the "girl" who would save France, she had to be thoroughly convinced of it herself.
To those ends, several accomplishments stand out:
She believed and obeyed the Voices; She wouldn't take no; She accurately prophesized; She generated tremendous enthusiasm from the people, which forced the French court to support her; She breathed confidence and discipline into the French army, which had been browbeaten and self-defeated until she inspired them; She exercised decisive military and political leadership; She scared the crap out of the English;[1]
---
La Hire's prayer
“God, do unto La Hire as he would do unto You, if he were God and You were La Hire.”
Joans heirs
she denies this story in her testimony, actually makes fun of it:
from Gutenberg 1909 book:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/19488/19488-h/19488-h.htm#CHAPTER_III
This time she announces that it is her mission to deliver Orléans. And the anointing is not to come to pass until this the first part of her task shall have been accomplished. We cannot fail to recognise the readiness and the tact with which the Voices altered their commands previously given, according to the necessities of the moment. Robert's manner towards Jeanne had completely changed. He said nothing about boxing her ears and sending her back to her parents. He no longer treated her roughly; and if he did not believe her announcement at least he listened to it readily.
In one of her conversations with him she spoke of strange matters: "Once I have accomplished the behest Messire has given me, I shall marry and I shall bear three sons, the eldest of whom shall be pope, the second emperor, and the third king."
Sire Robert answered gayly: "Since thy sons are to be such great personages, I should like to give thee one. Thereby should I myself have honour."
Jeanne replied: "Nay, gentle Robert, nay. It is not yet time. The Holy Ghost shall appoint the time."[389]
To judge from the few of her words handed down to us, in the early days of her mission the young prophetess spoke alternately two different languages. Her speech seemed to flow from two distinct sources. The one ingenuous, candid, naïve, concise, rustically simple, unconsciously arch, sometimes rough, alike[Pg i.79] chivalrous and holy, generally bearing on the inheritance and the anointing of the Dauphin and the confounding of the English. This was the language of her Voices, her own, her soul's language. The other, more subtle, flavoured with allegory and flowers of speech, critical with scholastic grace, bearing on the Church, suggesting the clerk and betraying some outside influence. The words she uttered to Sire Robert touching the children she should bear are of the second sort. They are an allegory. Her triple birth signifies that the peace of Christendom shall be born of her work, that after she shall have fulfilled her divine mission, the Pope, the Emperor, and the King—all three sons of God—shall cause concord and love to reign in the Church of Jesus Christ. The apologue is quite clear; and yet a certain amount of intelligence is necessary for its comprehension. The Captain failed to understand it; he interpreted it literally and answered accordingly, for he was a simple fellow and a merry.[390]
Catholicism
[XXXVIII-XLVII] As to these Articles, [covering among other points her claim that all she had done was at God's bidding; that she had never committed mortal sin 'notwithstanding that she has in fact performed all the actions customary to men of war, and even worse'; that she had declared that her voices were not on the side of the English 'affirming that the saints in glory detest a Catholic realm, to their shame'; that she boasted that her voices assured her of salvation if she kept her virginity, and that she is so assured; that she blasphemed and denied God and the saints]; in answer to many questions which were put to her
Yolanda of Sicily
Of all the revisions, diversions, and distortions of Saint Joan's story and legacy, I don't think any of them mention that another woman, Yolanda, Queen of Sicily played a crucial role in the story. Yolanda was the Dauphin's mother-in-law. She, too, must have believed the Maid, because she personally financed the campaign on Orléans. That's no small thing, but it is rarely mentioned.[1] Michael Bromley (talk) 14:23, 29 December 2024 (EST)
"voices decieved me" >> to clarify
Here for 1930s book on Joan: Saint Joan of Arc : born, January 6th, 1412, burned as a heretic, May 30th, 1431, canonised as a saint, May 16th, 1920 : Sackville-West, V. (Victoria), 1892-1962 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
that makes a big deal out of it. Michael Bromley (talk) 10:34, 31 December 2024 (EST)
Sainte-Beuve quotation "Pauvre Jeanne d'Arc!"
« Pauvre Jeanne d'Arc ! écrivait Sainte-Beuve. Elle a eu bien du malheur dans ce que sa mémoire a provoqué d'écrits et de compositions de diverses sortes. Elle a inspiré à de grands poètes tragiques, aux Shakspeare et aux Schiller eux-mêmes, des inventions odieuses ou absurdes ; elle a inspiré au plus bel esprit et à la plus belle imagination une parodie libertine qui est devenue une mauvaise action immortelle; elle est en possession de faire naître, depuis Chapelain, des poèmes épiques qui sont synonymes d'ennui et que rien ne décourage (1). Quelques vers touchants des Messéniennes qu'on a sus par coeur, sont une bien petite satisfaction après tant d'outrages (2). »
from LES MARTYRS VI
still can;'t find the original... from one of Sainte Beuve's essays ... Sackville-West opens her book on Joan w/ part of hte quotation:
Pauvre Jeanne d'Arc! Elle a eu bien du Malheur dans ce que so memoire a provoque d'ecrits et e compositions de diverses sorts"
Saint-Beuve Michael Bromley (talk) 11:22, 31 December 2024 (EST)
voices & instructions
Jean de Metz testified that Joan had been instructed fro 4-5 years n saving France. She told him:
“Have no fear,” she answered us, “what I am commanded to do, I will do; my brothers in Paradise have told me how to act: it is four or five years since my brothers in Paradise and my Lord—that is, God—told me that I must go and fight in order to regain the kingdom of France.”
Jeanne D‘arc, by T. Douglas Murray_The Trials_The Project Gutenberg eBook.pdf p 224 Michael Bromley (talk) 13:21, 31 December 2024 (EST)
Joan's Prediction of the Battle of the Herrings
From footnote but without citation: This is said to have been on account of the impression produced on him by Jeanne’s prediction, on February 12th: “To-day the gentle Dauphin hath had great hurt near the town of Orleans, and yet greater will he have if you do not soon send me to him.” This “great hurt” proved to be the Battle of Rouvray, in which the French and Scottish troops were defeated by the English under Sir John Fastolf" file:///C:/Users/mlb/OneDrive/Bible/historical/Joan%20of%20Arc/Jeanne%20D%E2%80%98arc,%20by%20T.%20Douglas%20Murray_The%20Trials_The%20Project%20Gutenberg%20eBook.pdf, fn 13.
also see:
https://dn790004.ca.archive.org/0/items/chroniquedelapuc00cousuoft/chroniquedelapuc00cousuoft.pdf
pp 271-272
Elle pressoit tousjours instamment ledict capitaine qu'il l'envoyast vers le roy; et luy fist avoir habillemens d'homme , et cheval et compaignons à la condiure ; et entre autres choses luy dist : En nom Dieu, vous mettez trop à m'envoyer; car aujourdhuy le gentil Dauphin a eu assez près d'Orléans un bien grand domaige, et sera il encore taillé de l'avoir plus grand, si ne m'envoyez bien tost vers lui. Lequel capitaine mist lesdictes paroles en sa mémoire et imagination, et sceut depuis que ledict jour fut quand le connestable d'Escosse et le seigneur d'Orval furent desconfits par les Anglois. Et estoit ledict capitaine en grand pensée qu'il en feroit; si délibéra et conclud qu'il l'envoyeroit; et luy fist faire robe et chaperon à homme, gipon, chausses à attacher, houseaux et espérons, et luy bailla un cheval et un varlet, puis ordonna à deux gentilhommes du pays de Champaigne, qu'ils la voulussent conduire
She constantly insisted that the captain send her to the king; and he made her have men's clothes, and horse and companions for the way; and among other things said to him, "In the name of God, you are taking too long to send me; for today the good Dauphin has had a very great loss near Orleans, and will have an even greater loss if you do not send me to him soon.” Which captain put the said words in his memory and imagination, and knew from the time the said day was when the constable of Scots and the lord of Orval were defeated by the English. And the captain was in great thought that he would do so; so deliberated and concluded that he would send her; and he made her a man's dress and hood, gipon, shoes to fasten, houseaux and espoirs, and gave her a horse and a valet, then ordered two gentlemen of the country of Champaigne to guide her.
Merlin, Bede prophecies
Bede said a woman w a banner will lead men < per In Our Time ep. on Joan Michael Bromley (talk) 08:10, 1 January 2025 (EST)
Guillaume d'Estouteville
Guillaume d'Estouteville - Wikipedia
reformed Univ Paris
oversaw the Rehabilitation Trial Michael Bromley (talk) 20:56, 3 January 2025 (EST)
not liked by Chas VII >> see the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_Sanction_of_Bourges
wanted to be pope
he appointed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Br%C3%A9hal to cover Joan's REhabliation ... this guy wrote two books on it -- in Latin of course https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02752b.htm
proto protestants
include Jacques Lefèvre d'Étaples - Wikipedia Michael Bromley (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2025 (EST)
servante and pucelle Maria
from the Chatbot:
The use of "pucelle" for Mary ties into a wider cultural tradition of associating purity and virginity with sanctity, especially in the Middle Ages. The term "pucelle" became so closely tied to ideals of female purity that it was later famously applied to Joan of Arc, who was often called "La Pucelle d'Orléans" (The Maid of Orléans).
If you'd like specific references to manuscripts or texts, these could often be found in collections of medieval French religious poetry, early liturgical texts, or manuscripts like the Bible Historiale.
You said:
Any sources on Jean Gearson's use of pucelle?
ChatGPT said:
Jean Gerson (1363–1429), a prominent French theologian and Chancellor of the University of Paris, is known for his writings on various religious topics, including his support for Joan of Arc, whom he referred to as "la Pucelle" (the Maid). In his treatise titled "Traité de Jean Gerson sur la Pucelle," Gerson discusses Joan of Arc's divine mission and the faith that should be placed in her.
This treatise reflects Gerson's recognition of Joan's role and his use of the term "la Pucelle" to describe her. The text is available for study and can be accessed through various sources, including the Internet Archive.
Additionally, Gerson's writings on Joan of Arc have been translated into English, providing further insight into his perspective on "la Pucelle."
These sources offer valuable information on Gerson's use of the term "pucelle" in reference to Joan of Arc and his theological reflections on her significance.
You said:
I'm intrested in Geron's use of "pucelle" for Mary not for Joan of Arc
ChatGPT said:
Jean Gerson (1363–1429), a prominent French theologian and Chancellor of the University of Paris, frequently referred to the Virgin Mary as "pucelle" in his writings, emphasizing her purity and virginity. This term, meaning "maiden" or "virgin," was commonly used during the medieval period to highlight Mary's chastity and her role as the mother of Jesus.
In his sermons and devotional texts, Gerson often employed the term "pucelle" to describe Mary, reflecting the deep Marian devotion of his time. For instance, in his work "Considerationes de Mysteriis Redemptionis," Gerson meditates on the mysteries of the Redemption, frequently invoking the Virgin Mary and referring to her as the pure "pucelle" who played a pivotal role in the salvation narrative.
Additionally, Gerson's emphasis on Mary's virginity is evident in his "Sermon for the Feast of the Annunciation," where he extols her as the "glorious pucelle" chosen by God to bear the Savior. This sermon reflects the theological significance he attributed to Mary's purity and her willing acceptance of God's will.
Gerson's use of "pucelle" for Mary aligns with the broader medieval tradition of venerating the Virgin as the epitome of chastity and obedience. His writings contributed to the rich tapestry of Marian devotion in late medieval Christianity, reinforcing the image of Mary as the pure and holy mother of Christ.
For those interested in exploring Gerson's Marian writings further, his collected works are available in various editions, including the "Œuvres Complètes," which provide comprehensive insights into his theological perspectives and devotional practices.
In summary, Jean Gerson's frequent reference to the Virgin Mary as "pucelle" underscores his deep reverence for her purity and his commitment to promoting Marian devotion during the late medieval period. Michael Bromley (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2025 (EST)
Joan political and military legacies
- professionalized stanfng army >> non-lord based or supplied leadership and soldiery
- french national identity >> Fonteyn was now part of france
- artillery
- centralized administration, nationalized taxation >> modern state
>> professsional not Fidel’s soldiers: administrative state; and bureaucracy; regular tax revenues
- church v concilisrism >> papacy; strengthened orthodoxy
Michael Bromley (talk) 02:57, 11 January 2025 (EST)
End of Burgundy, Battle of Nancy 1477
- Battle of Nancy (1477): The rivalry reached its climax at the Battle of Nancy, where Charles the Bold was killed. This defeat marked the end of the Burgundian State as a significant power and led to the partition of Burgundy's territories.
- Aftermath: Following Charles's death, his territories were divided, with the duchy of Burgundy passing to France and the Low Countries going to his daughter, Mary, who married Maximilian of Habsburg. Louis XI's actions effectively prevented the emergence of a powerful middle kingdom between France and the Holy Roman Empire.
Louis XI's strategic maneuvers and alliances played a crucial role in shaping the political landscape of Europe during this period. Michael Bromley (talk) 11:12, 13 January 2025 (EST)
Shakespeare's Henry VI pt 1 on Joan
Joan (Selous) - Henry VI, Part 1 - Wikipedia
has an image of "Joan's fiends abandoning her" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI,_Part_1#/media/File:Joan_(Selous).jpg
Michael Bromley (talk) 12:05, 13 January 2025 (EST)
chatgtp on did joan make it up
When Joan of Arc told her captors, the ecclesiastical court at Rouen that she had disobeyed her Saints by denying them in the abjuration document, does this mean she made it all up?
ChatGPT said:
No, Joan of Arc's statement to her captors does not necessarily mean that she "made it all up." Instead, it reflects the extreme pressure and complex circumstances she was under at the time. Here's the context:
The Abjuration and Her Saints
During Joan's trial, she was coerced into signing an abjuration document, renouncing her claims of divine guidance and visions. This occurred after months of imprisonment, psychological pressure, and threats of execution. The court was determined to discredit her and force her into submission. By signing the document, Joan temporarily saved herself from execution.
However, shortly afterward, she publicly recanted the abjuration, claiming she had acted out of fear and under duress. She reaffirmed her belief that her visions of Saint Michael, Saint Catherine, and Saint Margaret were genuine and had guided her actions. She explained that by denying them, she had disobeyed her Saints, which she believed was a sin.
Why Did She Sign the Abjuration?
- Duress and Fear: Joan was isolated, interrogated relentlessly, and threatened with being burned at the stake. The psychological and emotional toll was immense.
- Lack of Understanding: The abjuration document, written in Latin, may not have been fully understood by Joan, who was illiterate and spoke only Middle French. It's possible she did not fully comprehend what she was agreeing to.
- Momentary Weakness: Like many people under extreme stress, Joan may have momentarily faltered. Her later actions suggest she deeply regretted this decision and viewed it as a lapse in faith.
Did She Make It Up?
No credible evidence suggests Joan fabricated her visions or mission. Even her enemies acknowledged her conviction and sincerity. Her unwavering commitment to her beliefs, even at the cost of her life, strongly indicates she genuinely believed in her divine mission.
Joan's subsequent martyrdom—her choice to die rather than live in denial of her faith and visions—reinforces her sincerity. If she had "made it all up," she likely would not have chosen death over continued disavowal.
Instead, her confession about disobeying her Saints shows her humanity and internal conflict under unimaginable pressure, rather than deceit or fabrication.
You said:
Do any historians argue that she did make it up?
ChatGPT said:
Yes, some historians and skeptics have argued that Joan of Arc might have fabricated or misunderstood her visions, though this view is far from universally accepted. These arguments generally fall into a few categories:
1. Skepticism of Supernatural Claims
Some historians, particularly those with secular or materialist perspectives, argue that Joan's visions were not divine in origin. They propose alternative explanations:
- Hallucinations or Mental Health Issues: Some suggest that Joan may have experienced hallucinations due to mental illness, neurological conditions like epilepsy, or extreme stress and deprivation.
- Religious or Cultural Influence: In a deeply religious society, Joan might have internalized the imagery of saints and angels and genuinely believed she was receiving divine guidance when these were instead psychological or cultural constructs.
2. Political Opportunism
A few historians have speculated that Joan may have knowingly fabricated her divine claims to advance a political agenda. In this view:
- Joan was an exceptionally intelligent and charismatic individual who recognized that claiming divine authority was a powerful way to inspire support for Charles VII's cause.
- Her claims of divine guidance might have been a calculated strategy to rally the French people and legitimize Charles's contested kingship.
3. Misinterpretation of Experiences
Some scholars suggest Joan may have misinterpreted natural or psychological experiences as divine visions:
- Dreams or Hypnagogic States: Joan’s "visions" could have been vivid dreams or hypnagogic imagery experienced during wakefulness or sleep.
- Echoes of Church Teachings: Growing up in a deeply religious culture, Joan might have projected her own desires and convictions into a framework of divine revelation, believing herself chosen by God.
Counterarguments to These Theories
Most historians and experts in Joan's life, even those who are skeptical of the supernatural, argue against the idea that she "made it all up" in the sense of deliberate deceit. Key points include:
- Her Sincerity: Contemporary records, including the trial transcripts, repeatedly emphasize her earnestness and conviction. Even her enemies admitted she seemed genuinely convinced of her mission.
- Lack of Personal Gain: Joan's life offers little evidence of self-serving motives. She endured great personal suffering and ultimately chose death over renouncing her claims.
- Her Extraordinary Impact: Whether divine or not, Joan's charisma, leadership, and unshakable belief in her mission inspired an entire nation. This suggests she believed deeply in her cause, regardless of its origins.
Modern Consensus
While alternative explanations for Joan's visions and claims exist, the dominant view among historians is that she genuinely believed in her divine mission. Whether her visions were divine, psychological, or cultural in origin is a matter of interpretation, but there is little support for the idea that she deliberately fabricated them for personal or political gain.
You said:
Do any argue that she really didn't have that large a role in the events?
ChatGPT said:
Yes, some historians and scholars argue that Joan of Arc’s role in the events of the Hundred Years’ War, while significant, may have been exaggerated or romanticized over time. These arguments often attempt to place her contributions in the broader context of military, political, and cultural factors of the time. Here are the main points from this perspective:
1. Military Leadership Questioned
Some argue that Joan's actual influence on military strategy and battlefield success may have been limited:
- Symbolic Role: Critics suggest Joan was more of a morale-boosting figurehead than a genuine military commander. She was not trained as a soldier or tactician, and the successes attributed to her may have been the work of experienced commanders like Jean de Dunois (the Bastard of Orléans) and La Hire, who led the troops.
- Pre-existing French Momentum: By the time Joan joined the war effort in 1429, some historians argue that the French were already regaining strength. Charles VII had begun consolidating his position, and the English were stretched thin. Joan's arrival might have accelerated success, but it wasn't the sole cause.
2. Political Context
Joan’s role may have been amplified by political needs:
- Legitimizing Charles VII: Joan’s divine mission to crown Charles at Reims played into existing political strategies to bolster his legitimacy as king. Her success at Orléans and subsequent victories aligned perfectly with this narrative.
- French Nationalism: Later French chroniclers, especially during the 19th century, emphasized Joan's role to create a unifying symbol of French resistance and nationalism, possibly inflating her actual contributions.
3. Role of the Broader War Effort
Critics note that Joan was only involved in the conflict for about two years (1429–1431), during which time:
- The victories at Orléans and the coronation at Reims were significant, but not decisive in ending the war. The conflict continued for two decades after Joan's death, with key developments like the Burgundian switch to the French side in 1435 and the eventual expulsion of the English in 1453.
- Structural factors, such as shifts in alliances, the declining strength of English forces, and reforms in the French military, were arguably more important to the eventual French victory.
4. Posthumous Myth-Making
Some argue that Joan's story was elevated to mythical status after her death:
- Canonization and Legend: The Catholic Church’s canonization of Joan in 1920 and her portrayal in literature and art have cemented her as a symbol of faith and patriotism. This has led to a tendency to overstate her individual impact while downplaying the contributions of others.
- National Symbolism: In times of French crisis, from the Revolution to World War II, Joan has been used as a symbol of resilience and divine favor, further amplifying her legend beyond her historical role.
Counterarguments
- Morale and Inspiration: Even if Joan did not personally devise strategies, her presence and unwavering belief in her mission profoundly inspired the troops and the French populace. Her leadership was psychological as much as it was tactical.
- Turning Point at Orléans: While not the end of the war, the lifting of the Siege of Orléans in 1429 was a critical turning point. Joan’s role in rallying forces and pushing for aggressive action likely made a difference.
- Personal Agency: While she relied on experienced commanders, Joan repeatedly demonstrated agency, such as urging Charles VII to press forward with the coronation and confronting military hesitations.
Conclusion
While some historians downplay Joan's role by emphasizing the broader military, political, and social factors that contributed to French success, most acknowledge that her presence had a significant impact on morale and the course of key events. Even if her contributions have been romanticized, her story remains central to understanding this pivotal moment in history. Michael Bromley (talk) 09:23, 16 January 2025 (EST)
Abbey de Saint-Urbain on the way to Chinon
Abbaye de Saint-Urbain — Wikipédia Michael Bromley (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2025 (EST)
Historical snobbery
looking back upon prior historical periods as less sophisticated than today's and thus backwards and susceptible to mysticism and beliefs in miracles. Michael Bromley (talk) 13:15, 21 January 2025 (EST)
Enemy attestation
When your opponent attests to something about you it is convincing evidence that that evidence is true, as even the enemies believe it -- although perhaps in a negative light (Pharisees v. Jesus, English v. Joan) Michael Bromley (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2025 (EST)
St. Agnes
From homily by Saint Ambrose of Milan, (4th century)
"What threats the executioner used to make her fear him, what allurements to persuade her, how many desired that she would come to them in marriage! But she answered: “It would be an injury to my Spouse to look on any one as likely to please me. He who chose me first for Himself shall receive me. Why are you delaying, executioner? Let this body perish which can be loved by eyes which I would not.” Michael Bromley (talk) 17:20, 21 January 2025 (EST)
Michelle dau. Charles VI
Michelle of Valois - Wikipedia
She was named for Saint Michael the Archangel after her father noted an improvement in his health after a pilgrimage to Mont Saint-Michel in 1393. Michael Bromley (talk) 18:18, 21 January 2025 (EST)
Isabeau of Bavaria
from wiki entry:
Charles' illness created a power vacuum that eventually led to the Armagnac–Burgundian Civil War between supporters of his brother Louis I, Duke of Orléans, and the royal dukes of Burgundy, Philip the Bold and John the Fearless. Isabeau shifted allegiances as she chose the most favorable paths for the heir to the throne. When she followed the Armagnacs, the Burgundians accused her of adultery with the Duke of Orléans; when she sided with the Burgundians, the Armagnacs removed her from Paris and she was imprisoned. In 1407, John the Fearless assassinated Orléans, sparking hostilities between the factions. The war ended soon after Isabeau's son Charles had John assassinated in 1419—an act that saw him disinherited. Isabeau attended the 1420 signing of the Treaty of Troyes, which decided that the English king should inherit the French crown after the death of her husband. She lived in English-occupied Paris until her death in 1435. Michael Bromley (talk) 19:02, 21 January 2025 (EST)
Marie Robine
who was a french mystic who shortly before the arrival of Joan of Arc predicted to the French king that a woman would wear armor to save France?
The French mystic you're referring to was likely Marie d'Avignon (also known as Marie Robine). As early as the end of the 14th century, she had visions and prophesied about a virgin in armor who would come later to deliver France.
Marie Robine's predictions resonated with many, especially as Joan of Arc emerged and fulfilled the prophecy by leading the French to victory against the English. Prophecies and mysticism were deeply interwoven with medieval life, adding an intriguing layer to history, don't you think? Michael Bromley (talk) 12:01, 22 January 2025 (EST)
Bedford letter to the privy council Apr 1429
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Alia Huit imposteru pro loeo % tempe eis consitir ut asseruit apiend
Bingbot trnaslation:
xv®, die Aprilis anno vij°. apud Westm in magno consilio spalir convocat^ dns Ebo^ Cane pposuit causas cdgregac did consit ^ Primo q^ d&s Bed per Tras suas al consilio prival Regf direct declarantes desideriu consilii Franc ac alio^ subdito^ ibm de Kendo Regem ibm coronal ad effcm ut pceres dci regni 1 alii possint eidem facere hoc facto homag It fidelital j In qua matia dni de privato consit coicarunt sed quia matia est satis ardua It gravis It indiget consilio \ advisamenl sanior que fieri poterunt dni ordinarunt diet consiliu convocand in quo quitt dnoj spualiu temporaliu 1 at ad illud con vocal poterunt sup .pmis<f eo^ dare advisamentu consiliu.
lets try this one, too: Scdo quia p diim Thes tmino Hillar px pteril monstratus fuit p^vato consit status regni p que eviden? apparet qd omes revencoes regni non suppetunt ad onia ipius necessaria supportand p sUma xx. m'. marc p annii.^ Et attento qd diis Rex Itc. de verisimili necessario exiget roajores sumptus 1 expnf q*m p'us petebat 4 qd quill dno^ sup isto ecia ar^*^ plene \ matur delibatus suu daret rnsum. Terco quia dns Bed post obsidione p bo. recordac Comite Sa^ circa villa Aurelian posita scripsit consilio Regf qd attento qd plures soldar dci Comitis tarn in vita sua q*m post illicenciati a did obsidione recesserunt j Ita qd absqj nova retinenc \ magnis sumptib5 did obsidio teneri no porat pro qua causa petebat mitti in Franc
Secondly, because during the term of Hilary last past, the status of the kingdom was shown to the private council by the Lord Treasurer, whereby it appears evident that all revenues of the kingdom do not suffice to support all its necessary expenses, by the sum of 20,000 marks per year. And considering that the lord King etc. will likely require greater expenses and expenditures than previously demanded, the lords, having fully and maturely deliberated on this matter, gave their answer accordingly.
Thirdly, because the Lord of Bedford, after the siege by the late Earl of Salisbury around the town of Orléans, wrote to the king's council, stating that considering that many soldiers of the said Earl, both in his lifetime and after, had left the siege without permission, so that without new retainers and great expenses, the said siege could not be maintained, for which reason he requested to be sent to France. In support of the said siege, for the royal service, 200 wool cloths and 12 casks for the king's expenses for half a year are required, in which matter advice was also sought from the lords.
Another matter arose later for the place and time they decided, as was claimed. Michael Bromley (talk) 13:43, 22 January 2025 (EST)
The Lady of Luxumbourg
apaprently liked Joan
see Joan By herself p. 234, suggests that the Count of Lux held off turning her over to the English unitl after his aunt died Michael Bromley (talk) 14:30, 22 January 2025 (EST)
https://www.historyofroyalwomen.com/joan-countess-of-ligny/demoiselle-luxembourg-joan-arc/
Joan, the Demoiselle of Luxembourg was the daughter of Guy of Luxembourg, Count of Ligny. At the time of these events in 1430 Joan, who never married, was living with her nephew John of Luxembourg at the Castle of Beauvoir. John was a vassal of the powerful Duke of Burgundy. Also at the castle were John’s wife, Joan of Bethune and her daughter from her first marriage, Joan of Bar.
In May, one of John of Luxembourg’s soldiers captured Joan of Arc. John initially had her guarded at one of his fortresses, but when she tried to escape from there, she was sent to Beauvoir which was deemed more secure. Joan of Bethune and the Duke of Burgundy’s wife Isabella also advocated for this move since they deemed it more comfortable. There were now four Joans at Beauvoir.
Joan of Arc acknowledged at her trial that the Demoiselle of Luxembourg and Joan of Bethune were of some comfort to her while she was at Beauvoir. They encouraged her to cut her hair and gave her dresses and fabric so she could dress like a female. This Joan refused to do, saying she did not have the permission of God, but she added: “I would have dressed in woman’s clothes more willingly at the request of these women than of any other woman who might be in France, except for my Queen.”
Burgundian growth
not only did Burgundy gain power by movig to primogeniture (see article on origins of 100 yrs war in 1300s)
but also gained territory such as from Duchy of Luxembourg - Wikipedia
In 1411, Sigismund of Luxembourg lost the duchy to his niece Elisabeth because he defaulted on a loan. Elisabeth later sold the duchy to Philip the Good, duke of Burgundy of the House of Valois-Burgundy, who paid her off in 1444. The dukes of Burgundy had previously acquired a number of other possessions in the Low Countries, including Flanders, Artois, Hainaut, Brabant, Zeeland, Holland, and Namur; Luxembourg and these other Burgundian possessions in the Low Countries are collectively referred to during this period (1384–1482) as the Burgundian Netherlands. The male line of the dukes of Burgundy died out in 1477 when Philip's son Charles the Bold died at the Battle of Nancy, leaving Mary of Burgundy, his only child, as his heiress. After his death, Mary married Archduke Maximilian I of the House of Habsburg, who later became Holy Roman Emperor. The Burgundian Netherlands then came under the rule of the House of Habsburg, beginning the period of the Habsburg Netherlands (1482–1581).
but it all failed due to ... Joan. The Duchy was anulled by Charles VII (?) Michael Bromley (talk) 14:42, 22 January 2025 (EST)
University of Paris
>> add discussion about their role
> pro-English
> wanted custody of Joan
> conciliar movement
> Poitiers refugees from it Michael Bromley (talk) 10:26, 23 January 2025 (EST)
Did Regnaud de Chartres destroy the Poitiers transcripts?
see his entry in Pernoud's Her Story, p 178 Michael Bromley (talk) 10:27, 23 January 2025 (EST)
Thomas De Quincey's Joan of Arc: IN REFERENCE TO M. MICHELET’S HISTORY OF FRANCE
ChatGPT said:
Thomas De Quincey’s essay Joan of Arc: In Reference to M. Michelet’s History of France serves several purposes, blending historical commentary, literary critique, and philosophical reflection. De Quincey writes the essay in response to Jules Michelet's portrayal of Joan of Arc in his History of France. Here are the main points and purposes of the essay:
- Defense of Joan of Arc's Character: De Quincey seeks to restore Joan’s heroism and moral integrity, countering any misrepresentation or romanticization by Michelet. Michelet’s account emphasizes Joan’s human vulnerabilities and mysticism, whereas De Quincey elevates her as a figure of unparalleled courage, faith, and self-sacrifice.
- Critique of Michelet's Interpretation: De Quincey takes issue with Michelet's framing of Joan as primarily a product of French nationalism and romantic sentiment. De Quincey instead highlights her divine inspiration and spiritual strength, presenting her as a universal symbol of moral greatness rather than a narrowly nationalistic figure.
- Emphasis on Joan’s Spiritual Greatness: For De Quincey, Joan’s achievements go beyond political or military success. He presents her as a spiritual and moral exemplar, someone guided by a higher calling. He praises her simplicity, purity, and unwavering faith, contrasting her noble sacrifice with the cruelty and cynicism of her era.
- Reflection on Heroism and Sacrifice: De Quincey uses Joan of Arc’s story as a lens to explore broader themes of heroism, martyrdom, and the power of individual conviction. He portrays her as a symbol of resistance against oppression and as someone whose actions were rooted in profound ethical and spiritual principles.
- Romantic Sensibility: The essay reflects De Quincey’s Romantic outlook, with its fascination with extraordinary individuals, the sublime, and the interplay of emotion and spirituality. He celebrates Joan as a figure who transcends ordinary human limitations and embodies the Romantic ideal of the visionary.
In essence, De Quincey’s essay is both a defense and a celebration of Joan of Arc. It seeks to elevate her as a universal and timeless symbol of virtue and heroism, challenging Michelet’s more grounded and, at times, secular portrayal. De Quincey’s eloquence and philosophical depth make the essay a tribute not just to Joan herself but to the broader ideals she represents.
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Thomas De Quincey offers a nuanced critique of Jules Michelet in his essay, focusing both on Michelet's style and his treatment of historical subjects, particularly Joan of Arc. Here’s an overview of what De Quincey says about Michelet in general:
1. Admiration for Michelet’s Passion and Eloquence
De Quincey acknowledges Michelet’s literary brilliance and the passionate style he brings to his historical writing. He recognizes Michelet as a historian with a vivid imagination and a poetic sensibility, capable of breathing life into historical narratives. However, De Quincey suggests that Michelet’s literary tendencies sometimes cloud his objectivity as a historian.
2. Criticism of Michelet’s Romanticized Approach
De Quincey critiques Michelet for being overly romantic and subjective in his portrayal of historical figures and events. In particular, he accuses Michelet of allowing his personal emotions and ideologies to color his interpretation of Joan of Arc. Michelet, as a Romantic historian, often focuses on the emotional and symbolic aspects of history, which De Quincey feels leads to distortions or oversimplifications of the truth.
3. Disagreement with Michelet’s Secularism
De Quincey takes issue with Michelet’s secular and nationalistic framing of Joan of Arc. Michelet emphasizes Joan as a product of her time, shaped by the collective spirit of the French people and the nationalistic fervor of the Hundred Years’ War. De Quincey, on the other hand, views Joan as a divinely inspired individual, guided by spiritual forces rather than merely the cultural or political context of her era. He critiques Michelet for diminishing the transcendent, spiritual dimensions of Joan’s story.
4. Concerns About Michelet’s Bias
De Quincey accuses Michelet of being overly partisan and biased in his interpretation of history. Michelet was deeply influenced by his political and ideological leanings, particularly his nationalism and his anti-clerical stance. De Quincey points out how these biases manifest in Michelet’s work, leading to a portrayal of Joan that aligns with his broader agenda rather than a balanced or faithful representation of her life and character.
5. The “French Lens” on Joan of Arc
De Quincey suggests that Michelet’s portrayal of Joan is overly tied to French national identity and his desire to glorify France’s history. While Michelet sees Joan as a figure representing the soul of France, De Quincey emphasizes her universal qualities—her spiritual greatness, moral courage, and timeless heroism. He criticizes Michelet for reducing her significance to a nationalistic framework.
6. Historical Romanticism vs. Moral Realism
De Quincey contrasts Michelet’s Romanticism with what he sees as a more moral and philosophical approach to history. Michelet, in De Quincey’s view, prioritizes dramatic storytelling and emotional resonance, often at the expense of deeper ethical or spiritual truths. De Quincey, by contrast, wants to foreground Joan’s moral and spiritual virtues, seeing her as a symbol of divine providence rather than as a mere figurehead of French patriotism.
Summary of De Quincey’s View of Michelet
De Quincey respects Michelet’s talent and acknowledges the beauty of his historical writing, but he critiques Michelet for his romanticized, subjective, and nationalistic approach to history. He argues that Michelet’s interpretation of Joan of Arc, while poetic and evocative, ultimately misses the true essence of her character and significance. For De Quincey, Joan’s spiritual and moral greatness far surpasses Michelet’s more humanistic and culturally grounded depiction. Michael Bromley (talk) 10:09, 24 January 2025 (EST)
Joan's illness/s at Rouen
they didn't want her to die of natural cuases ... "I paid dearly for her.." < English guy Michael Bromley (talk) 13:40, 24 January 2025 (EST)
- ↑ Mentioned on p. 39 Joan of Arc : her story : Pernoud, Régine without any observation other than that Yolanda financed the operation. Seems to me something more than just writing a check going on there.