Talk:Saint Joan of Arc (Jeanne la Pucelle)

La Hire's prayer

“God, do unto La Hire as he would do unto You, if he were God and You were La Hire.”

Joans heirs

she denies this story in her testimony, actually makes fun of it:

from Gutenberg 1909 book: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/19488/19488-h/19488-h.htm#CHAPTER_III

This time she announces that it is her mission to deliver Orléans. And the anointing is not to come to pass until this the first part of her task shall have been accomplished. We cannot fail to recognise the readiness and the tact with which the Voices altered their commands previously given, according to the necessities of the moment. Robert's manner towards Jeanne had completely changed. He said nothing about boxing her ears and sending her back to her parents. He no longer treated her roughly; and if he did not believe her announcement at least he listened to it readily.

In one of her conversations with him she spoke of strange matters: "Once I have accomplished the behest Messire has given me, I shall marry and I shall bear three sons, the eldest of whom shall be pope, the second emperor, and the third king."

Sire Robert answered gayly: "Since thy sons are to be such great personages, I should like to give thee one. Thereby should I myself have honour."

Jeanne replied: "Nay, gentle Robert, nay. It is not yet time. The Holy Ghost shall appoint the time."[389]

To judge from the few of her words handed down to us, in the early days of her mission the young prophetess spoke alternately two different languages. Her speech seemed to flow from two distinct sources. The one ingenuous, candid, naïve, concise, rustically simple, unconsciously arch, sometimes rough, alike[Pg i.79] chivalrous and holy, generally bearing on the inheritance and the anointing of the Dauphin and the confounding of the English. This was the language of her Voices, her own, her soul's language. The other, more subtle, flavoured with allegory and flowers of speech, critical with scholastic grace, bearing on the Church, suggesting the clerk and betraying some outside influence. The words she uttered to Sire Robert touching the children she should bear are of the second sort. They are an allegory. Her triple birth signifies that the peace of Christendom shall be born of her work, that after she shall have fulfilled her divine mission, the Pope, the Emperor, and the King—all three sons of God—shall cause concord and love to reign in the Church of Jesus Christ. The apologue is quite clear; and yet a certain amount of intelligence is necessary for its comprehension. The Captain failed to understand it; he interpreted it literally and answered accordingly, for he was a simple fellow and a merry.[390]

Catholicism

[XXXVIII-XLVII] As to these Articles, [covering among other points her claim that all she had done was at God's bidding; that she had never committed mortal sin 'notwithstanding that she has in fact performed all the actions customary to men of war, and even worse'; that she had declared that her voices were not on the side of the English 'affirming that the saints in glory detest a Catholic realm, to their shame'; that she boasted that her voices assured her of salvation if she kept her virginity, and that she is so assured; that she blasphemed and denied God and the saints]; in answer to many questions which were put to her

Yolanda of Sicily

Of all the revisions, diversions, and distortions of Saint Joan's story and legacy, I don't think any of them mention that another woman, Yolanda, Queen of Sicily played a crucial role in the story. Yolanda was the Dauphin's mother-in-law. She, too, must have believed the Maid, because she personally financed the campaign on Orléans. That's no small thing, but it is rarely mentioned. Michael Bromley (talk) 14:23, 29 December 2024 (EST)

"voices decieved me" >> to clarify

Here for 1930s book on Joan: Saint Joan of Arc : born, January 6th, 1412, burned as a heretic, May 30th, 1431, canonised as a saint, May 16th, 1920 : Sackville-West, V. (Victoria), 1892-1962 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

that makes a big deal out of it. Michael Bromley (talk) 10:34, 31 December 2024 (EST)

Sainte-Beuve quotation "Pauvre Jeanne d'Arc!"

« Pauvre Jeanne d'Arc ! écrivait Sainte-Beuve. Elle a eu bien du malheur dans ce que sa mémoire a provoqué d'écrits et de compositions de diverses sortes. Elle a inspiré à de grands poètes tragiques, aux Shakspeare et aux Schiller eux-mêmes, des inventions odieuses ou absurdes ; elle a inspiré au plus bel esprit et à la plus belle imagination une parodie libertine qui est devenue une mauvaise action immortelle; elle est en possession de faire naître, depuis Chapelain, des poèmes épiques qui sont synonymes d'ennui et que rien ne décourage (1). Quelques vers touchants des Messéniennes qu'on a sus par coeur, sont une bien petite satisfaction après tant d'outrages (2). »

from LES MARTYRS VI

still can;'t find the original... from one of Sainte Beuve's essays ... Sackville-West opens her book on Joan w/ part of hte quotation:

Pauvre Jeanne d'Arc!  Elle a eu bien du Malheur dans ce que so memoire a provoque d'ecrits et e compositions de diverses sorts"

Saint-Beuve Michael Bromley (talk) 11:22, 31 December 2024 (EST)

voices & instructions

Jean de Metz testified that Joan had been instructed fro 4-5 years n saving France. She told him:

“Have no fear,” she answered us, “what I am commanded to do, I will do; my brothers in Paradise have told me how to act: it is four or five years since my brothers in Paradise and my Lord—that is, God—told me that I must go and fight in order to regain the kingdom of France.”

Jeanne D‘arc, by T. Douglas Murray_The Trials_The Project Gutenberg eBook.pdf p 224 Michael Bromley (talk) 13:21, 31 December 2024 (EST)

Joan's Prediction of the Battle of the Herrings

From footnote but without citation: This is said to have been on account of the impression produced on him by Jeanne’s prediction, on February 12th: “To-day the gentle Dauphin hath had great hurt near the town of Orleans, and yet greater will he have if you do not soon send me to him.” This “great hurt” proved to be the Battle of Rouvray, in which the French and Scottish troops were defeated by the English under Sir John Fastolf" file:///C:/Users/mlb/OneDrive/Bible/historical/Joan%20of%20Arc/Jeanne%20D%E2%80%98arc,%20by%20T.%20Douglas%20Murray_The%20Trials_The%20Project%20Gutenberg%20eBook.pdf, fn 13.

---

also see:

https://dn790004.ca.archive.org/0/items/chroniquedelapuc00cousuoft/chroniquedelapuc00cousuoft.pdf

pp 271-272

Elle prcssoit tousjours instamment ledict capitaine qu'il l'envoyast vers le roy; et luy fist avoir habillemens d'homme , et cheval et compaignons à la condiitre ; et entre autres choses luy dist : u En nom Dieu, vous y mettez trop à m' envoyer; car aujourdhuy le gentil 1) Daulpb'n a eu assez près d'Orléans un bien grand domaige, et sera il encore taillé de l'avoir plus grand, si » ne lii'envoycz bien tost vers lui. » Lequel capitaine mist lesdictes paroles en sa mémoire et imagination, et sceut depuis que ledict jour fut quand le connestable d'Escossc et le seigneur dOrval furent dcsconlits parles Anglois'. Et cstoit ledict capitaine en grand pensée qu'il cnferoit; si délibéra et conclud qu'il l'cnvoycroit; et luy fist faire robe et chaperon à homme, gipon, chausses à attacher, houseaux et espérons, et luy bailla un cheval et un varlct , puis ordonna à deux gentilhommes du pays de Chanipaigue, qu'ils la voulussent conduire :

She always insisted on the captain that he should send her to the king; and made him have the clothes of a man, and horse and companions to the condiitre; and among other things said to him: "In the name of God, you are putting too much effort into sending me; for today the kind 1) Daulpb'n has had a very great dam near Orleans, and will he still be cut out to have it greater, if he does not send him very soon to him. Which captain put the said words in his memory and imagination, and knew from the time the said day was when the constable of Escossc and the lord of Orval were dismissed by the English. And it was the captain's decree in great thought that he would do so; so deliberated and concluded that he believed it; and she made her dress and chaperon for a man, gipon, shoes to fasten, houseaux and hopes, and gave her a horse and a varlct, then ordered two gentlemen of the country of Chanipaigue, that they would lead her:

Merlin, Bede prophecies

Bede said a woman w a banner will lead men < per In Our Time ep. on Joan Michael Bromley (talk) 08:10, 1 January 2025 (EST)

Guillaume d'Estouteville

Guillaume d'Estouteville - Wikipedia

reformed Univ Paris

oversaw the Rehabilitation Trial Michael Bromley (talk) 20:56, 3 January 2025 (EST)

not liked by Chas VII >> see the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_Sanction_of_Bourges

wanted to be pope

he appointed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Br%C3%A9hal to cover Joan's REhabliation ... this guy wrote two books on it -- in Latin of course https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02752b.htm

proto protestants

include Jacques Lefèvre d'Étaples - Wikipedia Michael Bromley (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2025 (EST)

servante and pucelle Maria

from the Chatbot:

The use of "pucelle" for Mary ties into a wider cultural tradition of associating purity and virginity with sanctity, especially in the Middle Ages. The term "pucelle" became so closely tied to ideals of female purity that it was later famously applied to Joan of Arc, who was often called "La Pucelle d'Orléans" (The Maid of Orléans).

If you'd like specific references to manuscripts or texts, these could often be found in collections of medieval French religious poetry, early liturgical texts, or manuscripts like the Bible Historiale.

You said:

Any sources on Jean Gearson's use of pucelle?

ChatGPT said:

Jean Gerson (1363–1429), a prominent French theologian and Chancellor of the University of Paris, is known for his writings on various religious topics, including his support for Joan of Arc, whom he referred to as "la Pucelle" (the Maid). In his treatise titled "Traité de Jean Gerson sur la Pucelle," Gerson discusses Joan of Arc's divine mission and the faith that should be placed in her.

Internet Archive

This treatise reflects Gerson's recognition of Joan's role and his use of the term "la Pucelle" to describe her. The text is available for study and can be accessed through various sources, including the Internet Archive.

Internet Archive

Additionally, Gerson's writings on Joan of Arc have been translated into English, providing further insight into his perspective on "la Pucelle."

Academia

These sources offer valuable information on Gerson's use of the term "pucelle" in reference to Joan of Arc and his theological reflections on her significance.

You said:

I'm intrested in Geron's use of "pucelle" for Mary not for Joan of Arc

ChatGPT said:

Jean Gerson (1363–1429), a prominent French theologian and Chancellor of the University of Paris, frequently referred to the Virgin Mary as "pucelle" in his writings, emphasizing her purity and virginity. This term, meaning "maiden" or "virgin," was commonly used during the medieval period to highlight Mary's chastity and her role as the mother of Jesus.

In his sermons and devotional texts, Gerson often employed the term "pucelle" to describe Mary, reflecting the deep Marian devotion of his time. For instance, in his work "Considerationes de Mysteriis Redemptionis," Gerson meditates on the mysteries of the Redemption, frequently invoking the Virgin Mary and referring to her as the pure "pucelle" who played a pivotal role in the salvation narrative.

Additionally, Gerson's emphasis on Mary's virginity is evident in his "Sermon for the Feast of the Annunciation," where he extols her as the "glorious pucelle" chosen by God to bear the Savior. This sermon reflects the theological significance he attributed to Mary's purity and her willing acceptance of God's will.

Gerson's use of "pucelle" for Mary aligns with the broader medieval tradition of venerating the Virgin as the epitome of chastity and obedience. His writings contributed to the rich tapestry of Marian devotion in late medieval Christianity, reinforcing the image of Mary as the pure and holy mother of Christ.

For those interested in exploring Gerson's Marian writings further, his collected works are available in various editions, including the "Œuvres Complètes," which provide comprehensive insights into his theological perspectives and devotional practices.

In summary, Jean Gerson's frequent reference to the Virgin Mary as "pucelle" underscores his deep reverence for her purity and his commitment to promoting Marian devotion during the late medieval period. Michael Bromley (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2025 (EST)