Editing Saint Joan of Arc (Jeanne la Pucelle)/Saving Catholicism (section)

=== Saint Joan questioned on the Schism ===

By the time of Joan's Trial of Condemnation in 1431, the Western Schism had been officially settled, but the Court tried to use her views on it to discredit her or trip her up. Perhaps thinking that Joan would take the French view of things, she was asked,<blockquote>What do you say of our Lord the Pope? and whom do you believe to be the true Pope? </blockquote>To which Joan gave one or her sublime replies,<blockquote>“Are there two of them?”</blockquote>

Having that one swatted down, the court continued, <blockquote>

Did you not receive a letter from the Count d’Armagnac, asking you which of the three Pontiffs he ought to obey?</blockquote>Joan replied,<blockquote>The Count did in fact write to me on this subject. I replied, among other things, that when I should be at rest, in Paris or elsewhere, I would give him an answer. I was just at that moment mounting my horse when I sent this reply.</blockquote>It's a classic legal maneuver they tried ot pull on her, to lead a witness into a statement, then throw out contrary evidence, in this case, her exchange with the Count. But there was no deceit in Joan, who's testimony was entirely consistent with the evidence.

What had happened is that in July 1429, Jean IV, the Count d'Armagnac, himself allied with the English, sent a letter to Joan asking her to clarify the ongoing situation. They got the copies from him. Nevertheless, we have to assume the sincerity of the original letter, as well as the Count's intent: he genuinely thought Joan would provide divine guidance on the situation. As read to the Court at Tours two years later,<blockquote>

My very dear Lady—I humbly commend myself to you, and pray, for God’s sake, that, considering the divisions which are at this present time in the Holy Church Universal on the question of the Popes, for there are now three contending for the Papacy—one residing at Rome, calling himself Martin V., whom all Christian Kings obey; another, living at Paniscole, in the Kingdom of Valence, who calls himself Clement VII<ref>Typo or mistake: it was Clement VIII</ref>.; the third, no one knows where he lives, unless it be the Cardinal Saint Etienne and some few people with him, but he calls himself Pope Benedict XIV. The first, who styles himself Pope Martin, was elected at Constance with the consent of all Christian nations; he who is called Clement was elected at Paniscole, after the death of Pope Benedict XIII., by three of his Cardinals; the third, who dubs himself Benedict XIV., was elected secretly at Paniscole, even by the Cardinal Saint Etienne. You will have the goodness to pray Our Saviour Jesus Christ that by His infinite Mercy He may by you declare to us which of the three named is Pope in truth, and whom it pleases Him that we should obey, now and henceforward, whether he who is called Martin, he who is called Clement, or he who is called Benedict; and in whom we are to believe, if secretly, or by any dissembling, or publicly; for we are all ready to do the will and pleasure of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yours in all things,

Count d’Armagnac.<ref>[https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/57389/pg57389-images.html#r42 Jeanne D‘arc, by T. Douglas Murray] (Gutenberg).  Murray uses a different translation from Pernoud.</ref></blockquote>

That outlier third, Benedick XIV<ref>There were two Benedict XIVs, the first supported by a Cardinal from Rodiz in southern France named Jean Carrier. When the first XIV died, Carrier appointed himself Pope Benedict XIV. Carrier was later captured by the other antipope Clement VIII and imprisoned until he died. </ref> was from a city within the Count's territory, so perhaps he was looking to put him down ("who dubs himself"). Or, he really wanted to know what the Maid thought on the matter. It's all very strange, as the Count wrote the letter from Sully in northeastern France, and he was opposed to Charles VII. Joan was inundated with these types of inquiries, by letter or in person.<ref>See examples in Pernoud, Regine. Joan of Arc: By Herself and Her Witnesses (p. 127). Scarborough House. Kindle Edition. </ref> 

Joan dictated a reply to the Count's messenger, which is rather clever and to which her testimony at the trial corresponded:<blockquote>''Jhesus Maria.'' 

Count d’Armagnac, my very good and dear friend, I, Jeanne, the Maid, acquaint you that your message has come before me, which tells me that you have sent at once to know from me which of the three Popes, mentioned in your memorial, you should believe. This thing I cannot tell you truly at present, until I am at rest in Paris or elsewhere; for I am now too much hindered by affairs of war; but when you hear that I am in Paris, send a message to me and I will inform you in truth whom you should believe, and what I shall know by the counsel of my Righteous and Sovereign Lord, the King of all the World, and of what you should do to the extent of my power. I commend you to God. May God have you in His keeping! Written at Compiègne, August 22nd. </blockquote>From the trial: <blockquote>Court: "Is this really the reply that you made?” 

Joan: “I deem that I might have made this answer in part, but not all.”<ref>That indicates either that the letter was not entirely of her words, or what was presented to the court was incomplete. Likely the latter.</ref>

Court: “Did you say that you might know, by the counsel of the King of Kings, what the Count should hold on this subject?”

Joan: “I know nothing about it.”

Court: “Had you any doubt about whom the Count should obey?”

Joan: “I did not know how to inform him on this question, as to whom he should obey, because the Count himself asked to know whom ''God'' wished him to obey. But for myself, I hold and believe that we should obey our Lord the Pope who is in Rome. I told the messenger of the Count some things which are not in this copy; and, if the messenger had not gone off immediately, he would have been thrown into the water—not by me, however. As to the Count’s enquiry, desiring to know whom God wished him to obey, I answered that I did not know; but I sent him messages on several things which have not been put in writing. As for me, I believe in our Lord the Pope who is at Rome.”</blockquote>

Must have terribly disappointed the old boys at Rouen and Paris, as a primary reason for their siding with the English and for so vigorously pursuing Joan, as Pernoud discusses, was to affirm their power over the Papacy as well as over the French King.

The Western Schism was settled by granting to the a General Council of bishops the power to remove a Pope from office, which was done with the acquiescence of the Roman Pope, who after removal of the two other competing Popes, himself resigned to be replaced by a Pope selected by the General Council, Martin V.<ref>Charles VI had earlier declared himself neutral between the the Avignon and Roman Popes, which left the last Avignon Pope, Benedict XIII without sufficient support. Nevertheless, he refused to concede and was excommunicated by the General Council.</ref> The exercise of power by the Council is known as "conciliarism," which may be seen as    

Joan's voices didn't advise her on the issue of the papacy, so, as she said, she spoke for herself. Still, her impact on the issue was significant. A first question is if her reference to "the lord pope who is in Rome" is to Martin V or to Rome as the seat of the Papacy. It appears to be the latter, which would suggest something more than just Joan's "good sense," which the historian Michelet attributed to her authority rather than her voices. Rome had become unstable and subject to mob rule and invasion. It lay at the border of the Kingdom of Naples, which supported the Avignon papacy. Martin V's primary job was to secure and rebuild Rome itself. While subject to the General Council, by restoring the Vatican and the city around it, Martin V laid the foundation for the modern Papacy, which quickly overshadowed conciliarism, which was condemned at the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517).    

>> here   

Joan has no say in any of these affairs, but by coronating Charles VII at Rheims, she secured the necessary monarchical authority for secure Roman Catholic hold on France, be it Gallic in nature. For both Saints Catherine of Sienna and Joan of Arc, the papacy must be seated in Rome. Saint Catherine explicitly sought Christian unity, while Joan led a fight of Christian against Christian, but it was a fight Joan helped to end and not start, and she lamented the loss of life on both sides. A united France for Joan meant a united Church.      

Historians correctly attribute the Western Schism to the origins of the Protestant Reformation itself. At the Council of Constance, which ended the schism, Proto-Protestant Catholic priest John Wycliff was posthumously condemned for heresy and his body ordered exhumed and burned, and his follower Jan Hus was defrocked and handed over to hostile secular authority which burned him at the stake. Both men challenged the authority of the Pope -- which brings up a larger question as to which Pope. Wycliff was active before the Western Schism, but wrote his most radical tracts after it. Wycliff would have come of age with fresh memories of previous Schism, as well as with the outbreak of the Hundred Years War. Hus, who received Holy Orders in 1400, was a clear product of the Schism, which had divided the University of Prague where he studied and became master, dean and rector  in 1409. Hus' most drastic attacks on the abuses of the papacy were directed at the antipope John XIII who was using (abusing) the authority he (did not) had to collect tithes. In other words, both men were products of a fractured Church that Saints Catherine and Joan sought to repair.            

>> Joan swears to Martin >> why ?   Martin V, who ended the schism and who started the Univ. at Leuvain, was elected pope on St. Martin's Feast Day.  Here for St. Martin: [[wikipedia:Martin_of_Tours|Martin of Tours - Wikipedia]]

> these two saints admonishsed church unity at Rome ... but the divisions had already set the larger problem that Joan had to save Franch from, Jan Hus ... or his suporters were at th Council of << that settled the 2nd avignon schism.         

> Bridget predictd the reduced and exact size of the Vatican in 1922                  

>> note: the French king withdrew support of avignon in 1398 [[wikipedia:Antipope_Benedict_XIII#Avignon_papacy|Antipope Benedict XIII - Wikipedia]]<ref>In 1398, the Kingdom of France withdrew its recognition of the Avignon anti-popes. Benedict was abandoned by 17 of his cardinals, with only five remaining faithful to him.</ref> He was run out of Avignon, but returned w/ great popular support and affirmed by France, Scotland, Castille and Sicily.  1408 Chas VI declared neutrality                   

< he started the Univ of Glasgw )?( ... then loast France adn had to run from Avignon by 1413 ... then Constance 1415 refused, ws excommnicated in 1417 when Martin came on, ran to Aragon (Tortosa)                                    

>> CHas VII and [https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12333a.htm Pragmatic Sanction]  << note that a false pragmatic sanction supposedly issued by Saint Louis was circulated when Chas VII was adopting his own. It was not real.                  

>> councils >> get on Pernoud's obsession w/ them and warning about Joan's opposition to them                                    

> Henry IV > only protestant king of France.. renounced protestantism at St. Denis " "Paris is well worth a mass".                                     

>> House of Valois ended w/ two last (?) kins protesters