Editing Saint Joan of Arc (Jeanne la Pucelle)/Saving Catholicism (section)

== Saving Catholicism ==
Saint Joan saved France, yes. But she more importantly saved ''Catholic'' France and thereby Catholicism itself, as had France fallen to what was to become English Anglican and Protestant rule, so likely would have fallen the rest of Catholic western Europe.<ref>Italy was subject to foreign rule, so it would have followed a French trajectory, and thus compromising Rome. Spain, however, may have stayed Catholic, although without a Catholic France it becomes doubtful.</ref>

When, just before the Battle of Orléans, Joan warned the French commander there, the Bastard of Orléans<ref>"Bastard" was a neutral description to indicate that his father wasn't married to his mother.  The use of "Orlėans" in his name indicated high rank, as the Duke d'Orlėans was his half-brother. He was first cousin to the king, Charles VII. His actual name was Jean de Dunois. In 1439 he was made "Count of Dunois." The coolest title he held was Knight of the Order of the Porcupine.</ref>, to quit futzing around and get busy so she could save France, she told him that it wasn't about her, it was about God:<blockquote>This help comes not for love of me but from God Himself, who at the prayer of St. Louis and of St. Charlemagne has had pity on the city of Orléans. </blockquote>Huh, Saints Louis and Charlemagne?<ref>Charlemagne was canonized by the antipope Paschal III, whose acts were illegitimate, so Charlemagne is not recognized as a Saint. However, he has been venerated in France since Charles V (1338-1380), who led France to its highest points during the Hundred Years War, and so Joan would have considered him a Saint. </ref>

=== Intercession of Saints Charlemagne & Louis ===
When Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne ''Imperator Romanorum'' (emperor of the Romans) in 800, he crowned the Frankish king Charles (Carolus, Karlus) king of western Christianity, creating what would later become the Holy Roman Empire. In submitting as vassal to the Pope, Charlemagne legitimized both his own rule and that of Roman Catholicism across his empire.<ref>which is why his reign is considered the precursor to the Holy Roman Empire</ref> Among the religious legacies of Charlemagne was the practice of the laity of memorizing and reciting the Our Father prayer and the Apostle's Creed with the ''filioque''<ref>''filioque'' means "and the son" and is spoken in the Nicene Creed's "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son"  The ''filioque'' marks a theological division between the Eastern and Western Churches (which Charlemagne's coronation itself propelled, as his empire challenged Byzantine power). The ''filioque'' was traditionally used and was formally added to the Roman Rite in 1014.</ref> and the traditional singing of "Noel" at coronations in honor of Charlemagne's coronation by the Pope on Christmas Day.  

Saint Louis was the French king Louis IX (reigned 1226-1270). Crowned at Rheims,<ref>or Reims. I'm using "Rheims" because medieval French speakers liked their H's. I'm just speculating, but it's possible that the H in Rheims was aspirated, i.e. pronounced, so perhaps the dropped H marks a change in the pronunciation of the city's name.  "Rheims" is the English (England) spelling, as seen by the "Douai-Rheims Bible." The French language Wikipedia entry on Reims ([https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims here]) notes that "Rheims" is "orthographe ancienne".</ref> he ruled as a devout and pious Christian to such extent that he was canonized not long after his death. Louis' reign was marked by consistent protection of the clergy and Church from secular rule and strict allegiance to the papacy.<ref>From [https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09368a.htm CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Louis IX]

"St. Louis's relations with the Church of France and the papal Court have excited widely divergent interpretations and opinions. However, all historians agree that St. Louis and the successive popes united to protect the clergy of France from the encroachments or molestations of the barons and royal officers. </ref> He is considered the quintessential "Christian" -- but more correctly, Catholic, king.<ref>It was Saint Louis who acquired the Crown of Thorns. He got it from the Emperor of Constantinople in exchange for paying off the emperor's tremendous debt of135,000 livres to a Venetian merchant. In an exemplary Christian act, Louis IX fined the Lord of Coucy 12,000 livers (a lot!) for hanging three poachers and had part of the money dedicated to Masses in perpetuity for the souls of the Count's three victims. </ref> As for historical context regarding Joan, in 1259 he consolidated French rule over Normandy at the Treaty of Paris with English King Henry III. Some historians attribute Louis' concession of Duchy of Guyenne to the English under French vassalage to the outbreak of the Hundred Years War, but there is no direct causality to make that connection, and even if there was any unfinished business Louis preferred settlement over continued war.<ref>A few years before, 1258, Louis settled a dispute with the King of Aragon by trading respective feudal lordship over regions in Spain and France.  As to the treaty with the English, French historian  Édouard Perroy argued that the vassal status of English lands negotiated in the Treaty of Paris was unsustainable and caused discontent and instability that led to the Hundred Years War. Maybe. Here from the [https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09368a.htm CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Louis IX]

"It was generally considered and Joinville voiced the opinion of the people, that St. Louis made too many territorial concessions to Henry III; and many historians held that if, on the contrary, St. Louis had carried the war against Henry III further, the Hundred Years War would have been averted. But St. Louis considered that by making the Duchy of Guyenne a fief of the Crown of France he was gaining a moral advantage; and it is an undoubted fact that the Treaty of Paris, was as displeasing to the English as it was to the French."</ref>

If Joan's mission was to save France, Philip II (reigned 1165-1223) would have been the better intercessor, not Charlemagne or his grandson St. Louis, for Charlemagne's empire extended across Germany, and while Saint Louis extended French sovereignty, it was Philip who created the modern France that Joan defended.<ref>or Charles V who recovered much of France in the second phase of the Hundred Years War in the 1370s.</ref> Philip, in fact was the first to declare himself "King of France." Now, Philip was no Saint, as they say, so in Saints Charlemagne and Louis IX, perhaps Joan was appealing more to the Roman Catholic France than to the territorial one. Or, in that Joan's exhortation to the Bastard was about Orléans and not France, perhaps "the prayer of St. Louis and of St. Charlemagne" was just for the city. But Orléans was the key to it all, as so went Orléans, so went France -- and, ultimately, French Catholicism. 

The French King Charles V (reigned 1364-1380), who considered himself the fifth "Charles" of France,<ref>There were six, actually.</ref> promoted veneration of Charlemagne, including to dedicate a chapel to him at St. Denis with an elaborate reliquary, which treated him like a saint. The city of Rheims maintained a cult of Charlemagne and actively supported his canonization by the antipope Paschall III in 1165.<ref>The Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I, or Barbarossa (reigned 1155-1190), orchestrated the canonization of Charlemagne at Aachen in Germany under the antipope Paschal III. Holy Roman Emperors had a bit of a habit of  appointing antipopes (popes in their eyes), which asserted their power and that of their supporting bishops. With his long reign, Barbarossa backed four antipopes to oppose Pope Alexander III (1159-1181), but he was unable to outmaneuver Alexander, who gained the upper hand when kings of England, France and Hungry backed him, largely by way of contesting Holy Roman Empire's hold on Italy. (Alexander III spent most of his papacy outside of Rome.) Barbarossa capitulated after his forces were defeated by the Lombard League, which supported Alexander, at the  Battle of Legnano in northern Italy in 1176. Alexander consolidated his papal rule at the Third Council of Lateran in 1179, which formally brought an end to the schisms.</ref> 

>> fix < here? >> After resolving the 12th century schism of antipopes aligned with the Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick I ("Barbarossa"), Pope Alexander III annulled their papal acts, which included the canonization of Charlemagne.<ref>Pope Alexander III nullified the acts of Barbarossa's antipopes, including that of Paschall III to canonize Charlemagne. Alexander also forced the English Henry II into a year of penitence for the murder of Samuel Becket, who was canonized by Alexander shortly after his death in 1170. </ref> 

We can't say that it was of regional tradition or a remnant of the revoked canonization that Joan invoked, but we do know that when referring to "Saint Charlemagne" prior to Orléans, Joan was under the guidance of her voices. She invoked their names for a reason.  

=== '''The Babylonian Captivity''' ===
Joan herself was born amidst an ongoing papal schism. When she was five years old, the "Western Schism"<ref>The Eastern Schism would be the earlier break with the Easter church at Byzantium.</ref> of 1378 was finally settled with a consensus selection at Rome of Pope Martin V, although two rival claims persisted.<ref>The Schism was ended by the Council of Constance (1414–1418) that was made possible by the 1415 resignation of the Roman Pope Gregory XII. The Council deposed the sitting Avignon (anti)Pope, Benedict XIII, and another (anti)Pope at Rome, John XXIII, and then elected in 1417 Martin V. Originally backed by certain French bishops and various regions in Italy and Germany, John XXIII left Rome but ended up surrendering and being tried for heresy. The Avignon (anti)Pope Benedict XIII fled to the protection of the King of Aragon, continuing his claim as Pope of Avignon. His successor under the Aragon King was Clement VIII (1423-1429) although a dissenting Cardinal (of four who selected Clement) from Rodiz, France, in 1424 made a one-man appointment of his sacristan as (anti)Pope Benedict XIV.</ref> However, the antipope from Avignon, Benedict XIII, refused to concede, and he moved to Spain under the protection of the King of Aragon who used his presence there for leverage on other issues with Rome. It was Benedict's successor, the antipope Clement VIII who twelve years later finally gave up on the project on July 26, 1429 when the King of Aragon withdrew his support for him.<ref>The Aragon King Alfonso V did not have the support of the Aragon bishop in his backing of Clement VIII, but he did so in his pursuit of Naples. When antipope Clement VIII abdicated, he and his supporting Bishops held a proforma election for Martin V (who was already Pope), thus affirming their loyalty, as well as to perform a penitential ''in forma'' submission to Martin.</ref> Note the date: Joan's triumph at Orléans was in May and the coronation of Charles VII at Rheims occurred on July 17. 
There is an interesting parallel to Joan in the Schism itself, precipitated by Pope Gregory XI's move from Avignon to Rome in 1377, ending the uncontested "Avignon Papacy" but prompting the schismatic, French-backed papacy back at Avignon. Known as the "Babylonian Captivity," the official Avignon papacy lasted through seven Popes across sixty-seven years. We see in these events an inversion of antagonists from that of Joan's day: Where the English provoked God's wrath in the Hundred Year's War, the French caught themselves up in less-than-holy entanglements during the Avignon period, which ended only after the intervention of another female Saint, Catherine of Sienna.

In 1289, Pope Pope Nicholas IV allowed the French King Philip IV to collect a one-time Crusades tithe from certain territories under Rudolf of Habsburg (who was not happy about it) in order to pay down Philip's war debts. With the costs of ongoing wars with Aragon, England and Flanders, Philip was up to his ears in financial gamesmanship, including debasement of the currency, bans on export of bullion, and seizure of the assets of Lombard merchants. In 1296, he imposed a severe tax upon Church lands and clergy in France, which didn't go over well with Rome. Pope Boniface VIII responded with the first of three Papal Bulls aimed at Philip denying his right to tax the Church without papal permission and generally asserting papal over secular authority. 
[[File:Palazzo_dei_papi,_Anagni.jpg|thumb|<small>The "Palace of the Popes" in Anagni, south of Rome, where Philip IV attacked Pope Boniface VIII (wikipedia)</small>]]
The Pope compromised by allowing such a tax for emergencies only, and Philip went ahead anyway with at least some. Things escalated from there, with Philip prosecuting clerical agents from Rome in royal courts and the Pope issuing a wonderfully named Bull, ''Ausculta Fili'' ("Listen, My Son"), which Philip not only ignored but had burned in public. Boniface called the French Bishops to Rome, the assembly of which Philip preempted by convening the first Estates General in France, a council with representatives from the nobility, clergy, and commons. Boniface issued another Bull asserting Papal authority and excommunicated anyone, ''ahem'', who prevented clerics from traveling to Rome. Philip did the obvious thing and sent a small army of sixty troops to arrest the Pope and force his abdication. The soldiers stormed the papal estate at Anagni, south of Rome, and held him for three days until residents retaliated and rescued the Pope from the French.<ref>When the expedition's military commander, Sciarra Colonna, demanded the Pope's abdication and was told that the Pope would "sooner die," Colonna slapped him. The incident is known as the ''schiaffo di Anagni'' ("Anagni slap").  Boniface had been caught up in a feud within the Colonna family which led to devastation of villages by one brother over the assurances from Boniface that they would be spared. Dante Alighieri avenged the incident by placing Boniface in the Eight Circle of Hell in The Inferno.</ref> Now Philip got an excommunication directed at him personally. Boniface, though, likely from injuries or trauma suffered from the attack, and possibly from poisoning by the French, died shortly after. 

Philip's excursion to Anagni put pressure on the subsequent Papal conclave to avoid further antagonism with him. The next Pope, Benedict XI, rescinded the excommunication but not that of Philip's minister who led the attack on Boniface<ref>Benedict XI, as Cardinal Niccolò of Treviso, was present at the attack on Boniface at Agnini.</ref>, thus leaving the conflict unsettled. Benedict, though, died within a year,<ref>Benedict XI was known for his holiness, and over the years his tomb came to be associated with numerous miracles. In 1736 he was beatified, so he is "Pope Blessed Benedict XI."</ref> and after a year-long impasse between French and Italian Cardinals at the ensuing Conclave, Philip had his way with selection of the Frenchman, Raymond Bertrand de Got, as Pope Clement V. Clement basically did Philip's will, which included effective rescindment of Boniface's Bulls, a posthumous inquisition into Boniface in order to discredit him (which failed), sanction of Philip's arrest of the Knights Templar, and, most importantly, move of the entire Papal court to Avignon in the south of France. This was 1309.

==== Return from exile: Gregory XI & Saint Catherine of Sienna ====
Philip's capture of the Papacy worked well for him but no so much for the Church, which, bound to French dominance, lost its legitimacy elsewhere. At first the old enemies of Philip, England and Aragon, found it convenient not to have to deal with the Italians in Rome so did not object. However, a succession crisis among Philip IV's heirs led to the English claims on the French throne and outbreak of the Hundred Years War, over which the Avignon Papacy, while maintaining neutrality and assisting in treaty settlements, leaned towards the French side. So when Gregory XI moved the papacy back to Rome in 1376, the French were furious while the English could sit on their hands and shrug, "oh well." No objection them. And no objection, either, from the Holy Roman Emperor, whose brand was quite literally diluted by the move from Rome to Avignon.   
[[File:Western_schism_1378-1417.svg|thumb|<small>Map showing support for Avignon (red) and Rome (blue) during the Western Schism (Wikipedia)</small>]]
Shortly after arriving at Rome, Gregory died. Under the threats from a Roman mob to appoint an Italian, i.e., not a French pope, and with disunity and among the French faction, as well as absence of some of the French Cardinals, the Conclave compromised on a bishop from Naples<ref>The Roman mobs disliked having a Neapolitan pope only slightly less than they disliked having a French pope.</ref>, who became Urban VI.   

Two years later, with Urban refusing to return to Avignon, the French Cardinals held their own conclave south of Rome at Anagni, at invitation of the Count thereof, Onorato Caetani, who was angry at Urban VI for removing him from lands appointed to him by Gregory XI.<ref>Urban IV was stepping on lots of toes as he tried to reel back clerical political entanglements. For the Count of Agnagi, see [[wikipedia:Onorato_Caetani_(died_1400)|Onorato Caetani (died 1400) - Wikipedia]]</ref> The French Bishops selected a rather complicated man, Robert of Geneva, son of the Count of Geneva, who had studied at the Sorbonne, held a rectory in England, and earned the nickname "Butcher of Cesena" for authorizing the massacre of three to eight thousand people for the town's participation in a 1377 rebellion against the Papal States (lands directly ruled by the Pope). Now Clement VII, Caetani tried to set up shop in Naples, but was chased out of town by a mob who supported the Roman Pope, shouting, "Death to the Antichrist!" King Charles V of France, who certainly had a say in Caetani's selection, welcomed him back to Avignon as Clement VII and gathered support from various regions and countries who, for whatever reason, preferred France over England, such as the Scottish who went with whatever the English did not.  

This time period crosses with that of Saint Bridget of Sweden (1303-1373) who was terribly upset at the Avignon papacy, but whose pleadings to the Church to return to Rome were ignored. In 1350, Bridget sought papal authorization for her order, the Bridgettines, but she refused to go to Avignon, and went to Rome instead where she awaited the Pope's return -- which occurred finally in 1367 when the Avignon Pope Urban V visited Rome as a symbolic gesture of a permanent return. In Rome, he ran the Holy See from the Vatican but ran into various problems with local lords who had gotten used to having things their way. Along with rebellions within the Papal States (taking advantage of the absence of Rome), Urban faced trouble with the bishops back at Avignon who demanded his return. He did grant Saint Bridget her order in 1370, but as he prepared that year to return to Avignon, Saint Bridget told him that if he left Rome he would die. He did, and three and a half months later he died.  

Urban's successor, Pierre Roger de Beaufort<ref>His uncle, the Bishop of Rouen, was the Avignon Pope Clement VI. Beaufort was a "Cardinal Deacon" and not a priest, and hesitated to accept the position. (See [https://cardinals.fiu.edu/conclave-xiv.htm#1370 The Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church - Conclaves by century]) He was ordained the day before crowning as Gregory XI. For his biography, see [https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06799a.htm CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pope Gregory XI]</ref>, who became Gregory XI, had witnessed in person Bridget's prophesy to Urban V<ref>See [[wikipedia:Pope_Urban_V#To_Rome_and_back|Pope Urban V - Wikipedia]]</ref>, which may have, one can imagine, at least been in the back of his mind when he privately vowed before God to return the papacy to Rome should he be selected as Pope. Whatever the intention, for the first years of his papacy there were plenty of fires to put out (or try) and reforms to institute, including, interestingly, his 1373 ''règle d'idiom'', which instructed clergy to speak the local vernacular to their flocks outside of the liturgy, came well before the proto-Protestant heretic John Wycliffe translated the Bible into English.<ref>Wycliffe's radicalism led to Gregory's five 1377 Bulls against Wycliff.</ref> Gregory's attempts to reconcile the kings of France and England failed.   

The Avignon papacy was not tenable. And no matter how you look at it, Saint Peter died at Rome and not Avignon. Gregory XI seemed to think so, anyway, but he only acted on the conviction at the insistence of Saint Catherine of Sienna (1347-1380). Saint Catherine had picked up where Saint Bridget had left off,<ref>From Urban V's return to Rome through to her death, Bridget remained in Rome but focused setting up and financing her order and on other spiritual matters.</ref> dictating a series of letters to the Pope commanding him, among things, to return to Rome and in language Gregory characterized as having an “intolerably dictatorial tone, a little sweetened with expressions of her perfect Christian deference.”<ref>[https://www.loyolapress.com/catholic-resources/saints/saints-stories-for-all-ages/saint-catherine-of-siena-1347-1380/ Saint Catherine of Siena, 1347-1380 | Loyola Press]</ref> Not sure if it's Catherine so much as Gregory not wanting to hear it.<ref>Saint Joan of Arc issued similar exhortations.

In what seems a reference to Catherine of Sienna, although she was not yet canonized, an English witness of Joan at the trial compared her to Catherine:

"Her incontestable victory in the argument with the masters of theology makes her like another Saint Catherine come down to earth."

Pernoud, Regine. Joan of Arc: By Herself and Her Witnesses (p. 131). Scarborough House. Kindle Edition. </ref> For example, she wrote,  <blockquote>

I have prayed, and shall pray, sweet and good Jesus that He free you from all servile fear, and that holy fear alone remain.  May ardor of charity be in you, in such wise as shall prevent you from hearing the voice of incarnate demons, and heeding the counsel of perverse counselors, settled in self-love, who, as I understand, want to alarm you, so as to prevent your return, saying, “You will die.”  Up, father, like a man!  For I tell you that you have no need to fear.<ref>[https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/how-st-catherine-brought-the-pope-back-to-rome How St. Catherine Brought the Pope Back to Rome | Catholic Answers Magazine] cites ''St. Catherine of Siena as Seen in Her Letters'', ed. Vida D. Scudder (London, 1911), 165-166. 

The webpage seems to conflate this letter with another from that source on p. 185.   << to cofirrm</ref>  </blockquote>

In 1376, Catherine traveled to Avignon on behalf of the Republic of Florence to negotiate a peace with the Papal States.<ref>As did the 19th century French historian Michelet, it's easy to forget that this is at the cusp of what Michelet termed the "Renaissance," which means this period and the "Renaissance" were actually one, not distinct periods. A lot was going on.</ref> She failed at the immediate mission<ref>Catherine became famous across Tuscany as a holy woman (''santa donna)'' for her acts of charity, especially for the sick, as well as her calls for clerical reform general repentance through "total love for God." Florence was in rebellion from the Papal States and under a papal interdict, so it was thought that Catherine, who called for reconciliation with the Vatican, could yield advantageous returns. However, both sides succumbed to distrustful elements who did not want to see her succeed. After Gregory XI moved to Rome, he sent her back to Florence, this time on his behalf. While she was there, Gregory died and street riots broke out, likely due to longstanding frustration with the papal interdict, the larger conflict which had disrupted the economy and led to increased taxes, and the general policies of the guilds that ran Florence. That July a more general rebellion arose, the Ciompi Revolt, led by discontented wool workers in which Saint Catherine was nearly killed. The shocked calm that followed the rebellion led to reconciliation with the new Pope Urban VI.</ref> but through a divine inspiration won a far more important one: when they met, she told him that she knew of his private vow to return the papacy to Rome.<ref>[https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/how-st-catherine-brought-the-pope-back-to-rome How St. Catherine Brought the Pope Back to Rome | Catholic Answers Magazine]</ref> He so decided, but wavered in face of strenuous French objections. When Catherine heard of the indecision, she wrote,  <blockquote>I beg of you, on behalf of Christ crucified, that you be not a timorous child but manly. Open your mouth and swallow down the bitter for the sweet.</blockquote>In January of 1377, Gregory moved the papacy back to Rome. He soon after died, and his successor Urban VI refused to return to Avignon, where the French bishops held their own conclave and selected Clement VII, the first antipope of the "Western Schism" that would last almost seventy years, and that would lay the ground for the Martin Luther and the protestant schisms that followed.   
 
=== Saint Joan questioned on the Schism ===

By the time of Joan's Trial of Condemnation in 1431, the Western Schism had been officially settled, but the Court tried to use her views on it to discredit her or trip her up. Perhaps thinking that Joan would take the French view of things, she was asked,<blockquote>What do you say of our Lord the Pope? and whom do you believe to be the true Pope? </blockquote>To which Joan gave one or her sublime replies,<blockquote>“Are there two of them?”</blockquote>

Having that one swatted down, the court continued, <blockquote>

Did you not receive a letter from the Count d’Armagnac, asking you which of the three Pontiffs he ought to obey?</blockquote>Joan replied,<blockquote>The Count did in fact write to me on this subject. I replied, among other things, that when I should be at rest, in Paris or elsewhere, I would give him an answer. I was just at that moment mounting my horse when I sent this reply.</blockquote>It's a classic legal maneuver they tried ot pull on her, to lead a witness into a statement, then throw out contrary evidence, in this case, her exchange with the Count. But there was no deceit in Joan, who's testimony was entirely consistent with the evidence.

What had happened is that in July 1429, Jean IV, the Count d'Armagnac, himself allied with the English, sent a letter to Joan asking her to clarify the ongoing situation. They got the copies from him. Nevertheless, we have to assume the sincerity of the original letter, as well as the Count's intent: he genuinely thought Joan would provide divine guidance on the situation. As read to the Court at Tours two years later,<blockquote>

My very dear Lady—I humbly commend myself to you, and pray, for God’s sake, that, considering the divisions which are at this present time in the Holy Church Universal on the question of the Popes, for there are now three contending for the Papacy—one residing at Rome, calling himself Martin V., whom all Christian Kings obey; another, living at Paniscole, in the Kingdom of Valence, who calls himself Clement VII<ref>Typo or mistake: it was Clement VIII</ref>.; the third, no one knows where he lives, unless it be the Cardinal Saint Etienne and some few people with him, but he calls himself Pope Benedict XIV. The first, who styles himself Pope Martin, was elected at Constance with the consent of all Christian nations; he who is called Clement was elected at Paniscole, after the death of Pope Benedict XIII., by three of his Cardinals; the third, who dubs himself Benedict XIV., was elected secretly at Paniscole, even by the Cardinal Saint Etienne. You will have the goodness to pray Our Saviour Jesus Christ that by His infinite Mercy He may by you declare to us which of the three named is Pope in truth, and whom it pleases Him that we should obey, now and henceforward, whether he who is called Martin, he who is called Clement, or he who is called Benedict; and in whom we are to believe, if secretly, or by any dissembling, or publicly; for we are all ready to do the will and pleasure of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yours in all things,

Count d’Armagnac.<ref>[https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/57389/pg57389-images.html#r42 Jeanne D‘arc, by T. Douglas Murray] (Gutenberg).  Murray uses a different translation from Pernoud.</ref></blockquote>

That outlier third, Benedick XIV<ref>There were two Benedict XIVs, the first supported by a Cardinal from Rodiz in southern France named Jean Carrier. When the first XIV died, Carrier appointed himself Pope Benedict XIV. Carrier was later captured by the other antipope Clement VIII and imprisoned until he died. </ref> was from a city within the Count's territory, so perhaps he was looking to put him down ("who dubs himself"). Or, he really wanted to know what the Maid thought on the matter. It's all very strange, as the Count wrote the letter from Sully in northeastern France, and he was opposed to Charles VII. Joan was inundated with these types of inquiries, by letter or in person.<ref>See examples in Pernoud, Regine. Joan of Arc: By Herself and Her Witnesses (p. 127). Scarborough House. Kindle Edition. </ref> 

Joan dictated a reply to the Count's messenger, which is rather clever and to which her testimony at the trial corresponded:<blockquote>''Jhesus Maria.'' 

Count d’Armagnac, my very good and dear friend, I, Jeanne, the Maid, acquaint you that your message has come before me, which tells me that you have sent at once to know from me which of the three Popes, mentioned in your memorial, you should believe. This thing I cannot tell you truly at present, until I am at rest in Paris or elsewhere; for I am now too much hindered by affairs of war; but when you hear that I am in Paris, send a message to me and I will inform you in truth whom you should believe, and what I shall know by the counsel of my Righteous and Sovereign Lord, the King of all the World, and of what you should do to the extent of my power. I commend you to God. May God have you in His keeping! Written at Compiègne, August 22nd. </blockquote>From the trial: <blockquote>Court: "Is this really the reply that you made?” 

Joan: “I deem that I might have made this answer in part, but not all.”<ref>That indicates either that the letter was not entirely of her words, or what was presented to the court was incomplete. Likely the latter.</ref>

Court: “Did you say that you might know, by the counsel of the King of Kings, what the Count should hold on this subject?”

Joan: “I know nothing about it.”

Court: “Had you any doubt about whom the Count should obey?”

Joan: “I did not know how to inform him on this question, as to whom he should obey, because the Count himself asked to know whom ''God'' wished him to obey. But for myself, I hold and believe that we should obey our Lord the Pope who is in Rome. I told the messenger of the Count some things which are not in this copy; and, if the messenger had not gone off immediately, he would have been thrown into the water—not by me, however. As to the Count’s enquiry, desiring to know whom God wished him to obey, I answered that I did not know; but I sent him messages on several things which have not been put in writing. As for me, I believe in our Lord the Pope who is at Rome.”</blockquote>

Must have terribly disappointed the old boys at Rouen and Paris, as a primary reason for their siding with the English and for so vigorously pursuing Joan, as Pernoud discusses, was to affirm their power over the Papacy as well as over the French King.

The Western Schism was settled by granting to the a General Council of bishops the power to remove a Pope from office, which was done with the acquiescence of the Roman Pope, who after removal of the two other competing Popes, himself resigned to be replaced by a Pope selected by the General Council, Martin V.<ref>Charles VI had earlier declared himself neutral between the the Avignon and Roman Popes, which left the last Avignon Pope, Benedict XIII without sufficient support. Nevertheless, he refused to concede and was excommunicated by the General Council.</ref> The exercise of power by the Council is known as "conciliarism," which may be seen as    

Joan's voices didn't advise her on the issue of the papacy, so, as she said, she spoke for herself. Still, her impact on the issue was significant. A first question is if her reference to "the lord pope who is in Rome" is to Martin V or to Rome as the seat of the Papacy. It appears to be the latter, which would suggest something more than just Joan's "good sense," which the historian Michelet attributed to her authority rather than her voices. Rome had become unstable and subject to mob rule and invasion. It lay at the border of the Kingdom of Naples, which supported the Avignon papacy. Martin V's primary job was to secure and rebuild Rome itself. While subject to the General Council, by restoring the Vatican and the city around it, Martin V laid the foundation for the modern Papacy, which quickly overshadowed conciliarism, which was condemned at the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517).    

>> here   

Joan has no say in any of these affairs, but by coronating Charles VII at Rheims, she secured the necessary monarchical authority for secure Roman Catholic hold on France, be it Gallic in nature. For both Saints Catherine of Sienna and Joan of Arc, the papacy must be seated in Rome. Saint Catherine explicitly sought Christian unity, while Joan led a fight of Christian against Christian, but it was a fight Joan helped to end and not start, and she lamented the loss of life on both sides. A united France for Joan meant a united Church.      

Historians correctly attribute the Western Schism to the origins of the Protestant Reformation itself. At the Council of Constance, which ended the schism, Proto-Protestant Catholic priest John Wycliff was posthumously condemned for heresy and his body ordered exhumed and burned, and his follower Jan Hus was defrocked and handed over to hostile secular authority which burned him at the stake. Both men challenged the authority of the Pope -- which brings up a larger question as to which Pope. Wycliff was active before the Western Schism, but wrote his most radical tracts after it. Wycliff would have come of age with fresh memories of previous Schism, as well as with the outbreak of the Hundred Years War. Hus, who received Holy Orders in 1400, was a clear product of the Schism, which had divided the University of Prague where he studied and became master, dean and rector  in 1409. Hus' most drastic attacks on the abuses of the papacy were directed at the antipope John XIII who was using (abusing) the authority he (did not) had to collect tithes. In other words, both men were products of a fractured Church that Saints Catherine and Joan sought to repair.            

>> Joan swears to Martin >> why ?   Martin V, who ended the schism and who started the Univ. at Leuvain, was elected pope on St. Martin's Feast Day.  Here for St. Martin: [[wikipedia:Martin_of_Tours|Martin of Tours - Wikipedia]]

> these two saints admonishsed church unity at Rome ... but the divisions had already set the larger problem that Joan had to save Franch from, Jan Hus ... or his suporters were at th Council of << that settled the 2nd avignon schism.         

> Bridget predictd the reduced and exact size of the Vatican in 1922                  

>> note: the French king withdrew support of avignon in 1398 [[wikipedia:Antipope_Benedict_XIII#Avignon_papacy|Antipope Benedict XIII - Wikipedia]]<ref>In 1398, the Kingdom of France withdrew its recognition of the Avignon anti-popes. Benedict was abandoned by 17 of his cardinals, with only five remaining faithful to him.</ref> He was run out of Avignon, but returned w/ great popular support and affirmed by France, Scotland, Castille and Sicily.  1408 Chas VI declared neutrality                   

< he started the Univ of Glasgw )?( ... then loast France adn had to run from Avignon by 1413 ... then Constance 1415 refused, ws excommnicated in 1417 when Martin came on, ran to Aragon (Tortosa)                                    

>> CHas VII and [https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12333a.htm Pragmatic Sanction]  << note that a false pragmatic sanction supposedly issued by Saint Louis was circulated when Chas VII was adopting his own. It was not real.                  

>> councils >> get on Pernoud's obsession w/ them and warning about Joan's opposition to them                                    

> Henry IV > only protestant king of France.. renounced protestantism at St. Denis " "Paris is well worth a mass".                                     

>> House of Valois ended w/ two last (?) kins protesters